JM: Thank you so much for agreeing to speak with me, it's been a bit of a cat and mouse situation to get this interview so I’m very pleased and keen to jump straight into it, who is Tara?

TL: Tara is very stressed! No, Tara is a mum to three amazing boys, a wife to an amazing man and a catalyst for long lasting valuable change I like to think. 

JM: Excellent and tell us a little bit about your upbringing, your education and background?

TL: Sure, I was brought up by two strict Nigerian parents.

JM: Yes, that's a consistent theme with everyone we’ve spoken to this month. 

TL: Yes, the expectation is to be first in everything! Looking back at my upbringing, I was very lucky to have two parents who were passionate about creating the right opportunities for me. My father was actually the first in his community to go abroad to do his Masters degree in Russia. He studied there in the 50’s and to his credit he never complained about it - he saw every challenge as a reminder of his duty to create more opportunities for others less fortunate. When my mum relocated to the UK she had to start all over again - holding down multiple jobs to make end meets, so I learnt from her, the art of multitasking and how to work incredibly hard to try and provide a better life for yourself and your family.

JM: I spent  the first 11 years of my life in Nigeria, my dad passed away when I was about 10 years old so my grandparents took over (raising me) and I got kicked into boarding school in Somerset. The reason I ask about your experiences coming over is because for me, it was difficult. I suddenly found myself here in the winter season, seeing snow for the first time and struggling with the cold! But what was your story like, how did you find it? 

TL: I just remember thinking that all of England would look like my mum’s Trafalgar square photos! The reality of our situation in England was such a contrast between what I had imagined. Whereas in Nigeria I was part of a majority and then I came here and became part of a minority - which wasn’t as much of a surprise... but was what was shocking was how differently minorities were treated - usually unfairly. And this was in stark contrast to my experience of how minorities - other races, e.g., white or Indian minorities in Nigeria were treated. And then of course, you have the class system, my father was a successful  senior military captain, so I had a very comfortable upbringing, but moving in with my mum who was at the time separated from my Father, meant I have to get a job to help with my tuition. When I arrived at her house, I remember thinking ‘why is my mum’s entire place like the size of one of our bedrooms back in Nigeria?’ Those were just a few of the racial, socio-economic and personal shocks I tried to deal with as I settled into my new life. 

JM: How long  would you say it took you to feel ‘British’ and  and by that I mean how long did it take you to feel completely comfortable not just with yourself but with socializing and feeling comfortable with life here in the UK? I know for the longest time I only wanted to eat ‘rice and red stew’ ...still do! But these little things can make one homesick.

TL: Yes, it's interesting actually, If I’m being completely honest with myself and I don’t feel proud about saying this, I probably forced myself to be British quickly, because I think for some reason I was probably ashamed  of the Nigerian stereotype that I thought I was a part of , so I would barely talk about Nigeria, barely talk about the life I was living.

JM : Yes, gosh, that must have been difficult, the battle of identity and trying to find one’s self. 

TL: Yes, so I think I definitely tried to put out an image of ‘Black British’ from day one, but actually over time, I started to really embrace my Nigerian upbringing and life before the UK. But yes, I definitely wanted to soak in everything that I think this country (UK) had to offer and yes, it wasn't the life that I was expecting but I still felt fortunate that I had access to consistent education and other privileges. I’m sure you know what education was like in Nigeria back then, I had older siblings at University and I remember their teachers being on strike almost all the time.

JM: Yes, it's really upsetting but I think they are getting better now, ok  well, I don't want to concentrate too much on where you started but more on where you are now. And before we get into your career, a little fun question we like to ask. You’ve got £10,000 to your name having lost your fortune and inexplicably become unhireable. What do you do to try and rebuild and get back on your feet?

TL: Ha! I’d celebrate, that's a good amount of cash in this current climate. On a serious note, I think I’ll probably pray and reflect first, I'm quite a spiritual person and usually turn to God when I try to make sense of things. Then I would think quite strategically. So I can’t get a job, so I’d probably do what I’ve always wanted to do which is to build my own business and start thinking about who I would start it with.

I would also invest maybe half to try and earn something and maybe the other half I would keep in an account to try and get my business going. The business would be digital so I wouldn’t require a lot of overheads, and then it’s a case of going around trying to convince people to join me. 

JM: Sure, you know that is the most complete answer to date, spoken like a true consultant! Very metholdical & systematic and measured. Most people just sigh, and tell me it couldn't happen to them! That's a really organised response to a bit of a disaster scenario. Thanks for sharing and so having had a look at your background, you've had a little tenure in investment banking, in Goldman Sachs and then strategy in McKinseys where you also spent quite a bit of time. What would you say your career highlight was in those early years? 

TL: So I think one highlight was building a new business for a client at McKinsey and I think the reason that was a highlight for me was that it was a combination of a few of my passions. One is innovating, we were creating something really unique, an evolution of a product which hadn’t faced any sort of disruption for a generation. It was a banking product, a current account and we pushed ourselves to think more creatively and really define the underlying value . Which was something that I just thrived at and felt really energised by.

The second thing was consumer design, I’m a firm believer in design solutions from the perspective of the user, now that might sound commonsensical but actually most businesses start off with the product. For example if you are a laptop business you might say ‘ok, if we are making new laptops, lets see how we can make a better laptop’. Whereas we would take a leaf from great innovators like Apple Inc and say well no, actually let's start with what the frustrations are, the pain points from the consumer perspective. So that might mean really focusing on your research, speaking to lots of people etc. Working with that client really inspired me to get a better understanding of how people engage with money and finances, their dreams and fears surrounding money management.

And the third thing is people enablement to make them better. So typically most of the projects I had worked on, clients tell us a problem, we go away, consult with them every now and then come back with a list of recommendations. However with this client we worked as a collaborative unit. We were onsite with the client virtually every day and not just sitting together and working but also taking them on a journey, here's how you think about design, building a business plan, forecasting revenue, stress testing assumptions, etc. I could see them upskilling in the process and for me that's one of the most powerful things you can do as a consultant which is to leave clients not just with a solution but with the confidence and capabilities to continue the work. 

JM: And I guess the other side of the coin and there's no real nice way of saying this but can you share with us a particular career lowlight and what lessons you learnt from the experience? 

TL:  Hmm… I have quite a few

JM: I don't believe that!

TL: Ha! Well one that comes to mind, was at Goldmans, I didn't  get a promotion that I deserved and I was very confident that I would get it, I knew all the stakeholders in making that decision (to promote me) they had all told me, ‘it’s yours’ and that ‘this is just a formality’. 

JM: Oh no, always have alarm bells ringing when one is told ‘this is only a formality!’

TL: Right, but I believed them, my mentor was one of the decision makers and she was even the one who encouraged me to go for the role. Apparently they (the management) think I would be perfect for the role. I thought the stars were aligned for me, I already told people I'd gotten the job.

And then, I didn't get it.  Just going back to what you said about alarm bells, I pride myself on having a bit of a sixth sense about these things. But I still didn't see it coming. They called me into a meeting and there I was thinking they were calling me to get a start date, instead they said look, we are really sorry but we gave the job to someone one else. I was so upset, I remember crying for half a day. 

Having said that, as I look back at it, it was a really good lesson on so many levels but I think the biggest one was how do you turn disappointment into an opportunity? 

JM: Sure.

TL: So I did a number of things, I took time to reflect on what I really wanted which wasn't actually that promotion, I think it was a new set of opportunities to grow, to learn, to challenge myself at a level that I thought I was ready for. So when I started to peel back the whys, why do you want this, why do you need that etc. It allowed me to get to the right answer which was actually you need to leave, you need to go get an MBA and invest in yourself. And if I hadn’t done that I wouldn’t have got my MBA, never have applied to Mckinsey. I knew I wanted to work for a leading consulting firm, go to a leading business school. So I wouldn't have pushed myself for those goals if  not for the disappointment at Goldmans.

JM: Yes, I think timing is everything, I recruited into private equity and when I started it was mainly at the junior level and I used to have difficult conversations with individuals coming out of tier 1 banks, who had been there for 4-6 years. Back then our clients didn't want people doing more than 2-3 years before making the transition into P.E. The worry being that people would get institutionised, especially in an environment like Goodmans. I think you spend too long there and you can lose a little bit of your self, your soul.  

Anyway, having made that decision to go and do an MBA, you headed off to Harvard Business school, which is amazing, you must have taken away so many positives, can you tell us a little about that experience, are you still friends with anyone from business school?

TL: Yes, I do keep in touch with some of them. And it was a great journey,  it was also surprising at some levels. For example I didn’t  learn as much technical skills as I thought I would, I thought I would learn the secrets and art of modelling, but instead I learnt a lot about myself, about leadership, personal skills like influencing, negotiations etc. That was really good and probably is a lot more relevant for me now. And I think building that network (Harvard Alumni) is also a key bonus.

JM: You are absolutely right with Harvard, I think  when it comes to business schools you have to be pretty specific on what you want, I know there are other ivy league Universities that are much stronger on the Quants side of things. Clearly at Wharton for example or at least they used to be pretty strong  on that side of things. 

TL: You are absolutely correct. 

JM: It would have been a bit bizarre for someone coming out of Goldman Sachs not to have strong quants knowledge anyway, where as Harvard is known for having a great general program that focuses more on leadership and management concentrating more on topics like  organisational behaviour, negotiation, leadership etc these skills that are termed soft skills, which is a term I don't like becauseI feel like it belittles just how important they are especially when you get to your level of senior management.  

TL: Yes absolutely, I’m in agreement. 

JM: And hopefully it was worth the money for their program? 

TL:Well, I’ve only just about finished paying it off 10 years later. I mean I would do it all again, it was a great decision but it is a massive investment and I’m lucky I could do it.

JM: And then McKinsey came calling? 

TL: I don’t know if calling might be the right word, I chased them vigorously and actually I think another lesson I learnt was during that job search. So after the summer internship I didn't get an offer and before my interviews I spoke to people for advise, perhaps individuals that were more confident than me who were use to getting their own way, they told me things like  ‘oh it's easy, you just have to be natural’,  so don't over invest, and then I found out that the very same people who actually got offers had been practising, working on their interview technique like every day for the last 6 months! I remember speaking to a colleague who confessed that he had been doing a few hours a day preparing for McKinsey. 

JM: Wow, it can be a game they play (other students) I guess it's a competitive atmosphere and people will do their best to distract you.

TL: Definitely, so it taught me to be owner prepared, especially when it comes to things that weren as natural for me, case studying, interviewing etc so I tried again and practiced a lot for my next interview and after that, then McKinsey came calling! 

JM: So did Harvard set those interviews for you or did McKinsey reach out themselves, did you pick up the phone yourself? 

TL: So there is a whole process, where they come on campus and we get various deadlines on applications, first round, second round interviews etc, it's really quite a well oiled system.

JM: Yes, I’m sure and that leads me nicely to my next question, 8 years, junior partner, you've pretty much got to the top at McKinsey so I’ve got to ask what made FT Strategies so compelling that they were able to persuade you to move on?

TL: I think getting to associate partner made it (the move to FT Strategies) a much harder decision but I think there were phases where I felt like this isnt going to work. I had young children and McKinsey, like most consultancies - was a very demanding place to work and I didn't always feel like I quite found my home and then towards my final years, I actually felt like I’d found a group of people who were true sponsors and I felt very passionate about the opportunity, I could now see a clear path from associate partner to senior partner even. So it was hard to leave. 

JM: Can I just ask what is the full progression chain at Mckinsey again? 

TL: Sure, you start off as a business analyst, then associate then junior engagement manager, engagement manager, then associate partner then there are two more levels, partner and senior partner. 

JM: OK, so how did FT come about in the end? 

TL:  So, I reached a point in my career where I had to think to myself, do I stick around and battle to get to senior partner or do I try something new? And ultimately I decided to go with my dream which is to build, I always wanted to build a business. Even when I was on maternity leave, I was clearly crazy, because I started a business. I went into a google accelerator program. Madness, because this was me with a kid and now twins all under 18 months. Anyway when this job came up, I had come to realise I really wanted to build and not necessarily my own thing, but something I could have full autonomy over and overall responsibility. So that's the first thing, the opportunity to build a new business with the backing of a big brand like the FT. 

The second thing was  what we were going to build, as I said earlier I love working at the intersection of disruptive forces, consumer design and innovation technology and what we are doing at the FT will be a chance to bring all of that together. To create winning, valuable digital relationships. So I felt that a move here would be aligned to my professional goals, a chance to continue to learn and make a real difference, one that would leave me fulfilled. 

My husband works in energy, specifically oil and gas and it's actually as boring as it sounds but yet he comes home and is really fulfilled even when he is stressed you can tell he really enjoys his job. That’s inspiring for me and again, if I’m being really honest with you, I enjoyed the status at McKinsey, the brand, my colleagues, the clients. But did I go home at night and tell my boys that ‘yes, mummy re-designed the organisational structure of this pharmaceutical company?’ No, I didn't, so I  realised I had reached a point where I needed to do something that I was deeply, deeply passionate about. At least most days! 

And the third thing was people, it's always about the people right? I had fantastic people that I admired at McKinsey, but I had probably more people that I didn’t admire. Of course there was no guarantee either that I would admire everyone I worked with at the FT so that would also have been a bit of a risk because you never really know the measure of people until you join. However the interviews went well, the people I met I had shared values with. 

And as I think about it, it's the little things that end up adding fire to a desire to look for pastures new, like it was always an issue working from home at McKinsey and with 3 kids that was something I just couldn't avoid from time to time. I think those outdated mindsets of if you are not in the office then you are not performing were difficult to manage. I wanted to be somewhat present for my children, cause I was always travelling or working late which wasn't great. I’m not saying I want to be a stay at home mum just yet, but I do want to be present  and the opportunity to go home at 5pm was like impossible for me to imagine until I started interviewing for this role, my interviewer and boss, worked from home twice a week, didn't  stay past 5pm most days and got in around 9:30am in the mornings, so it just felt like to me there would be a lot more balance here.

JM: I think it's great that you had the opportunity to follow your heart and your core values, because sometimes it can come down to luck, most people don't get to do the job they love. Can I ask, you're here (FT Strategies) your settled in a bit and obviously things are going to be a little slow with COVID still with us. But what were the initial expectations of your role, especially at your level, coming in to lead the business, what does success look like? 

TL: To Build a highly successful, leading consulting business. The FT is more innovative than most people, myself included prior to me joining. We are very big on staying ahead of key trends and diversification. So I've always thought of the FT as this really successful pink paper and coming in I now realise there is a whole universe of businesses here. They have an events business, a marketing business, a research business, they've invested in fashion and other magazines, so they do a lot of things and I guess to be a successful, viable business you have to constantly reinvent yourself. 

I think they recognise this, because one of my concerns prior to joining was that this strategy house was just a side project for them or would they be serious about it. Happily the leadership see this as core and critical to their long term sustainability as the news industry continues to be disrupted. So I think they want this business to be commercially successful,  they want us to scale this as quickly as possible. We believe in our value proposition that we have something truly unique and incredibly compelling that can compete with both the bigger and smaller players in our field. So I think they are looking at this with really big intentions. And while the goals are clearly commercial, we are also about the impact, I think our mission of trying to be a leading force for change, positive change in the world is one that I take very seriously with what we are trying to do here. We are basically trying to save industries and this is particularly important to me. Working with businesses, industries, livelihoods so our USP of helping you build successful digital models is one that news as an industry clearly needs to survive. Literally we have hundreds of news business closing shop every week.

JM: Yes, it's been very tough for that industry. 

TL: I remember a client thanking me and saying that we are showing them how to fill the revenue void that advertising and print has left, it's not just saving that particular company but it's about saving jobs and preserving the fundamental role that independent, quality journalism plays in upholding a free and fair democracy.

To me, that's a role and an opportunity I couldn't resist. The ambition is to grow this business, when I started there were 3 people and now we have 13 plus 2 interns and that's all in 7 months. We also really want to preserve industries that play a fundamental role in society whether its journalism, whether its sports or the Arts, we are going after these sectors.  

JM: So as a last question as I know time is not on our side, do you feel that FT Strategies could be the lead revenue generator for the FT group in the future?

TL: I am Miss ambitious, I always try to aim for the impossible and in this instance you are right it is possible. I mean now we are definitely quite a significant way from delivering that sort of revenue. Other parts of the business, specifically digital subscription are at the top. But we are literally celebrating our anniversary this Friday and in a year we have grown faster than any other part of the group, we have also delivered the most impressive returns versus our operating costs. We  delivered 200% in excess of our revenue target and we have a quarter of the year to still go and 4x our profit target, which in the middle of a pandemic, I hope is impressive. So it's exciting, there is potential and I have big ambitions and I am sure  this could be up there as one of the significant businesses within the FT. 

JM : Alright you said it, if you say it out loud it makes it real, let everyone hear it!

Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, it's been a real pleasure.

JM: Alright Lara, let's crack on with it, I guess you’ve read some of our previous interviews so no surprises here, the first question, who is Lara?

LO: Lara is a solicitor of the Senior Courts of England & Wales and a barrister of the Supreme Court of Nigeria. I started my career journey in Lagos, after graduating from the University of Lagos and then to law school becoming a barrister at the age of 22. I have been a lawyer since then and looking back now, I have to to say I really don’t think I could have been anything but a lawyer. I love the law, I love the practice of law, I feel it's so versatile and it's the best career ever, but then I would say that!

JM: OK, had you already made up your mind that you wanted to be a lawyer? Was there any input from your parents? Were there any other potential options in those earlier days?

LO: No not at all but my parents were quite particular, especially my father about being educated. I still have this particular memory of every time we got our school results if we were not in the top five (exam scores) he would flash some documents and say ‘well that's it’, he was going to call his lawyer to change his will, and leave everything to charity! That was kind of ‘a stick’ to get us to do really well academically. I am one of 5 children, number 4 and my younger brother didn't come along until I was 8 years old, so for a long time I was the last born and was spoiled rotten by my parents. I had all the attention and I didn't feel like I had to do anything other than be educated, go to university and that would be it. So I really didn't think of law as a profession, all I knew was I had to go to university and graduate. But then I got introduced to law and it's probably the best thing that could have happened to me. 

JM: I think one of the values we have gotten so far from this interview series is that there was a high level of academic expectations among our speakers’ parents and in your case, was academia something you enjoyed or did your parents have to ‘encourage’ you with threats of being cut off from the family fortune?

LO: I don't think we had a lot of choice (in our household) because my parents put a lot of structures in place to facilitate our education. For example from an early age we had a home tutor and we had lessons at home every other evening and it was run as a proper class in a school, with all of us in attendance.

TB: Wow.. every other day? That's intense. 

LO: We had to go to school religiously, we didn’t get a day off even when we had colds. And that was the culture and values in our household really, we just had all the opportunity to excel. As you know Nigerians just love education, it's a big thing for us. After growing up and having my own children I can see why. Education is really a foundation for everything, it gives you independence, freedom and allows you to be the best you can be. If you are educated, you are informed. 

JM: And can I ask how has that translated to your own children, have you installed that same educational drive that your parents instilled in you?

LO: Absolutely, because there is no other way and when I say education it doesn't necessarily mean academic, however the fact remains that you need to be educated, to be informed because when you have that, it’s so liberating, you can do so much more and I've been very lucky all my children are very academic and all professionals now.

JM: Indeed and I’ve done some research, am I right in thinking you have three daughters who went to Oxford, one to Cambridge and a son who went to King's College London?

LO: Yes, that's absolutely correct. 

JM: My goodness and what do they do for a living now? 

LO: Well, two of them are medical doctors, one is a hematologist clinical senior registrar and my son who is also a doctor is a psychiatrist, currently on his academic fellowship programme at the University of Oxford. Two of my daughters are solicitors in practice, as associates at Slaughter and May and Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt & Mosle. The remaining daughter is an investment associate at General Atlantic, a growth equity firm. So as a family we kind of have everything we need, law for advice, medicine for keeping healthy and finance for good investment decisions!

JM: I guess with those sorts of children, the only question left is why are you even still working?

LO: Ha! Well there’s no choice really, it's a question of values instilled in you, you just don’t stop, it's not about the money. It's about the person you want to be. Being the best that you can be, being a good citizen and wanting to improve yourself. That's my motivation, always wanting to achieve and improve everyday so I have to stay working to keep going.

TB: If I may interject there, there seems to be a common theme with the last two people we spoke to in terms of being true to themselves. Also what you say about being a better human and trying to contribute to the world, so I wanted to ask that with your strong academic beliefs and how its been instilled in you and now your children, you still made an interesting point when you say that education doesn't just mean academia can you expand on that please?

LO: When we talk about academia, we think of education up to university level. However  you don't get all of your education by just going to university. There are other ways and other skills. For example you have a lot of skilled workers that are very good at what they do without having a formal education. As much as I try I just can't do DIY around the house, I have the enthusiasm on a Sunday to do some painting etc but I just don’t have the skills. But these are skills you need, people in construction for example are in demand and they may not have any formal education but their skill sets are very much needed. So education in itself is an understanding that every knowledge counts and is important for a functioning and successful society.

JM: So a little bit of a fun question. Hypothetically speaking, you are down to your last £10,000, having made some terrible investment decisions, the kids have abandoned you. How do you pick yourself up...can you pick yourself up? 

LO: What sort of a question is that Joe!?

JM: We used to say £500, but I got in trouble with our last two interviewees, as they felt it was a little too small.

LO: Well, look I am a saver, so I’d be very surprised if I ever find myself in a situation where I’ve spent it all. But should that happen, money isn’t everything. First thing will be my children, my family, are they ok? If my bad financial management hasn't affected them then that's a plus. The next thing is my health and mental well being. Without good health you really can't do much so I would ensure that I can still maintain a healthy lifestyle and keep my mind healthy to be able to think and find a way to make sure I can still meet  all my liabilities and responsibilities whilst trying to find a job, I guess.

JM: Ok, so over the years can you talk to us about a career highlight that you are proud of?

LO: I think, currently it's probably my appointment as a member of CBELA, which is the Committee on Benefactions External and Legal Affairs of the University of Cambridge. Being part of the body that advises the vice chancellor, a member of a committee full of outstanding academics and scholars is really the highlight of my career. It's great to be able to do that. 

JM: That's amazing, it also marries nicely to your passion for education. This is the first time I am speaking to someone who advises universities so can I ask what sorts of situations might your committee be required to give an opinion on?

LO: Sure, as the name suggests, there are many benefactions to the university and It helps to make sure that all the benefactions are such that they will not bring the university into disrepute and that we are accepting them for the right reasons. Also all external matters and  legal affairs come to the committee where the Vice Chancellor is obliged to seek our advice before it goes to the University Council. So it varies but broadly speaking it covers those areas. 

JM: So essentially it's about being careful whose money you accept and what strings come attached with it! 

LO: Ha, well it's about just making sure we are making the right decisions for the right reasons. 

JM: Sure and can you tell us about a particular career disappointment over the years, how did it come about and what lessons were you able to learn from it? 

LO: Well there is one that always sticks in my mind, very early on in my career, having just become a barrister in Nigeria. You have to do a one year pupilage and so I was working for a principal back in Nigeria. We had a case that went before a judge where we defended a  claim and we thought the outcome would be successful. My principal was so confident that he sent me to  court on my own to receive the judgment. The claimant’s barrister was a very senior lawyer and I was sitting on the front bench with him. He kept chatting to me and complimenting me, I was so overwhelmed and felt so privileged to be sat with someone that senior that I forgot what I was there for. We were successful as expected and it is customary that whoever wins gets a cost order against the other side. 

So when the judge asked me whether I wanted to make an application, rather than remember to ask for the cost order, I simply said ‘no, no, no  your honour, I don't have any application to make’. The judge looked at me and asked again, ‘do you want to make an application?’ And again I declined, and just stood there smiling and thinking we have won the case! So at the third time of asking the Judge just came out and said ‘surely you want to be making an application for costs?’ And that was when it dawned on me that I might be moments away from ending my career before it had really started! So the judge saved my skin on that day. I learned a very important lesson that still serves me today, which is not to be intimidated  or be overly impressed by position, status or seniority, understand that you need to think on your feet and be present and alert all the time. 

And if I fast forward to my arrival in the UK after four years at the Commercial Bar  including appearances at the Court of Appeal in Nigeria, the reality of relocating here was a shock to the system even though Nigeria is a common law jurisdiction. In England you have to be a barrister or a solicitor and that was not something you could just walk into. Whilst I was allowed to practice as a common law qualified lawyer in a regional law firm due to dispensations given to me by various district and county judges, to take on cases in chambers. It was nonetheless really difficult to get a training contract  so I continued my practice  as  a common law qualified lawyer. I had the option to be admitted into one of the Inns of Court on my qualifications but barristers are self employed. Whilst it's one thing to be admitted to the bar, you  still have to get the cases and without any sort of pedigree or reputation in the UK it was going to be tough for me to get any work. So eventually I got fed up and got tired of explaining that I was a common law qualified lawyer and, whilst working at the British Railways Board, I decided to study for my Law Society Finals (as they were called at the time) as well as take up a training contract. The Solicitor for the Board said to me that he wasn’t sure that they could support me, I was so infuriated. 

I felt that if I was going to be the one going through the stress, undertaking  the studying and all  I was asking for was an opportunity, then why not? Why hold me back? So I stayed persistent and made it clear this was something I wanted to do and would do with or without them, so eventually they did allow me to study, but I was told I had to resign to take up a training contract.

JM: So were you advised to give up your job in order to study for the Law Society Finals  whilst trying to raise your family, that's a lot of pressure?

LO: Absolutely, at the time I just had my third child, but it was important  that I qualified in the UK rather than continue to describe myself as a common law qualified lawyer. It was a choice and decision that I felt I had to make. So I gave up my job advising the various businesses of British rail at the time and entered into a training contract. I had to study remotely with 3 young children, instead of following the normal path of attending a college of law. This  meant that I studied for my Law Society Finals concurrently with a training contract for two years. 

In fact it was all a risk because back then there was no guarantee that after your training contract you would be retained to full time employment. I didn’t care, as I’ve said I just knew I wanted to be qualified in the UK and was prepared to take my chances because training contracts were really tough to get back then, they still are now. I believe it was the best decision I made at the time, even though it was a great disappointment for me to have to give up my full time job and the security that comes with that. The Solicitor made it very clear that this was a big risk, they informed me that if I failed even one paper I would be out, I wouldn't be allowed to retake a paper or finish the training contract. I just had to make this work and that meant waking up at 4:30am, doing my studying then leaving home at 7:00am to get to work at 8:00am and studying at my desk for another hour until 9:00am then doing my job until about 5:30pm. Finally going home to tend to family matters before studying  again till about 10:00pm, then go to bed and repeat it all over the next day.

TB. Wow…

LO: Yeah for me it was a huge sacrifice but I wanted to prove that I can put myself through the mill, everyone thought I was mad you know, I took two weeks off to sit all my papers, I think I did 12/13 subjects over that 2 weeks at the NEC in Birmingham, and it was very exhausting and satisfying at the same time when it was all over. 

In those days you got your results published in the Times newspaper, and on the day of the results I drove all the way to Kings Cross station to get the first edition of the Times which was around 5am. I was elated to see my name in the papers and when I got to work my boss already had a copy and was waving it at me, he was so proud of me and he confessed that he didn't think I could do it!

From there everything changed for me, I became a senior solicitor and within a period of 12 months I had a couple of landmark cases, it was just fantastic and that was it after that there was no stopping me.

JM: That's an amazing story and I'm really glad you shared that with us, I deal with a lot young people who are beginning their own legal journey and they lament their battles for a training contract and these are young people, usually living with their parents, they certainly aren't trying to raise 3 children as well. They complain of the challenges of getting the training contract, or taking the exams and you know doing what they have to do to get qualified. The fact that you managed to get it all done with first time passes and with all that was going on is a real credit to your mental toughness. 

LO: Thank you Joe, as I said it's the best decision I ever made  and I think it's a question of people being very clear about what they want from their career, because nothing comes easy and everything has a price and it depends if you are prepared to pay it and luckily I was.

JM: Now moving round to Contis, having looked at your previous role at Klarna, who have been doing great things themselves. Can I ask what the reasons were for looking at Contis, what was compelling about them?

LO: Well frankly,  I didn’t know who Contis were initially, I wasn’t looking to leave Klarna at all. But one of my key beliefs is never to limit my options and I always follow up on opportunities whenever they present themselves. So you know, I had a call from a headhunter who had seen my profile on LinkedIn and they wanted to talk about Contis. I did a bit of research and then we had a positive conversation. I was interested as it was an executive role and that was probably the next step for me in my career. I thought there could be no harm in having a discussion.

JM: Just quickly want to say from a slight and by slight I mean a great big position of self interest here, how great it is that you were open to conversations with a headhunter. I’m always saying to senior individuals like yourself, who are not actively looking that just because you haven't heard of the firm doesn't mean there is no value in having an initial conversation with them. If only to see what's on offer and what it might lead to, if anything it's a great opportunity to network.

LO: I agree with you, you just don't know, and at the end of the day you can just say ‘no’. No one is ever forced to take a job, and it's because I was willing to have an initial conversation that I met the incredible Peter Cox.

JM: OK, and who is Peter Cox?

LO: Peter is the founder and chairman of Contis, he has done so much in his career, I came to see him and we had a positive conversation, his interest was very much on my ability to  get things done based on merit, he didn't care whether I was a woman or black or whatever. What he saw was the value I could bring to Contis. So it was a positive conversation and because I wasn't actively looking I was free to speak my mind. 

JM: And that leads me nicely to the nuts and bolts of your role. You hold a dual title here as both the General Counsel and Chief Risk Officer, can I ask what are the expectations of your roles. 

LO: I think Peter made the decision that risk management can be a competitive advantage for a business like Contis especially in the payments sector which is very competitive. He felt that he would need a senior risk officer to make sure Contis remained compliant and continue to provide the required oversight. We are of course regulated by the FCA here in the UK and  also by the Central Bank of Lithuania because we have an entity over there. Peter took the decision, to ensure we remain above board on everything we do, to hire a Chief Risk Officer. But upon meeting me, I think it's clear that I enjoy the law and I wasn’t ready to give that up, so I guess Peter thought this was an opportunity to have a Chief Risk Officer who is also a lawyer. One of the key things we do as lawyers anyway is to assess risk and have action plans on how to manage them, ensuring the business runs according to our risk appetite. For me the icing on the cake was having an executive role with Peter inviting me to have a seat at the leadership table, that was enough for me to make the decision to join Contis. This move is a culmination of all the years of legal practice, working for big businesses, FTSE listed companies  and bringing all that experience and exposure to Contis so we continue to make all the right decisions. I am contributing directly to the strategy of Contis and I find that quite motivating. We hire talent based on merit and merit only. I love working with my colleagues. We get on, we work hard...I’ve been working so hard recently, Peter sure knows how to pile it on! But I love it, a dream role.

JM: Thats fantastic, just one more question, I know when I have worked on Chief Risk Officer roles, most of the focus is on candidates’ skillset on compliance management, relationships with regulators, technical knowledge etc but in your role there can be a bit of a battle with the front office or sales team that inevitable want to take on clients that might not fit the acceptable profile that your business looks for. So how do you manage your commercial colleagues, how do you keep them happy and make sure they feel they can go out there and do their job without you interfering?

LO: Well our sales and commercial team are fully onboard with what Contis’s risk appetite is, that instruction comes from the top and so when they go out to bring in the sales they know the required perimeters and the framework to adhere to, which is one of our responsibility as an Exec team so they are very clear in terms of the goals and objectives of Contis regarding the sort of business that we want that will help contribute to our growth. So I don't really need to police very much in that case as they know the products and services that they are selling. It's all very clear and when it isn't they refer back and the required guidance is given. 

JM: So what does success look like for Contis in regards to your role? What guarantees your bonus at the end of the year? 

LO: Well, I just keep doing what he’s (Peter Cox) employed me to do.

JO: So that is to make sure the relationships with the FCA is good, making sure that the business isn't taking on undue risk etc? 

LO: Look, I’m part of the Exec team so most of the business decisions are taken collectively, whilst my focus remains on our regulatory obligations. Ultimately we need to continue to grow Contis as a business, while remaining compliant and driving profitability. We work well together to make sure that remains the focus. We look after our employees to make sure they remain motivated and continue to do the best for Contis and if we manage to do all that, I am sure Peter will be happy with everyone’s performance. 

JM: Ok and lastly from me how has Contis supported you, helping you fulfill all that you have mentioned on the professional side but also your personal goals? 

LO: Well first of all, I feel I have been fortunate with support from all my previous roles but I think with Contis, they have been on point in promoting my role, shouting from the rooftops about the skills and knowledge I can bring to the role, so in terms of support it's been 100%. The support from my colleagues on the Exec team is great, we all work well together and support each other. I just feel truly part of the team, I don't feel that because I am a lawyer I am an outsider in the group. I feel I can be myself, we all have open discussions and we sometimes agree to disagree. Everyone gets a chance to air their views and I think that's important.

TB: Thanks Joe, Lara I really admire your career story, it's been very fluid and methodological, reminds me of an athlete, you know, they are people who have a plan from a very young age and they have been training intensely for it. And when you watch them perform it seems so natural but you don't see all the work that they do and have done over the years. Your work ethic is quite outstanding, really thanks for sharing it.

Right, so Covid? How has the current pandemic affected you professionally and personally?

LO: I think Covid-19 has been one of life’s limiting annoyances personally. I know nobody expected it but my general philosophy in life is not to focus on a problem but find the solution. So to me Covid was a problem that no matter what you do it was going to affect everyone’s way of life. I am fortunate to live near a lovely nature reserve and for my well being I made it a point to go for walks every morning, to get outside, get some fresh air and get my head right. I was determined to make the choice that Covid did not ‘get one over me’ and I was going to make sure I stayed healthy, going for long walks and making sure I know and understand what this disease is about so as to protect myself and my family. I don’t feel Covid is something I had to make huge allowances for, rather Covid had to fit into my lifestyle, lockdown permitting.

TB: I like how you embody Covid as an adversary.

JM: Yes, everyone else has been telling us how they've been trying to manage it, but you seem like you are in the middle of a personal battle with Covid!  Why let a global pandemic slow you down right?

LO: Ha! Look, the important thing is obviously self preservation, anything that challenges that including Covid, you have to face it head on, you've got to keep yourself strong, healthy and maintain your mental health. The only way I feel I can do that is not to focus on the negative aspects of Covid. I don't believe there is any problem that can't be solved if you have time and are healthy.

TB: I guess it's just another obstacle, another challenge to be overcome, you also said that taking walks helped you ‘get your head right’ what exactly do you mean by that? 

LO: So I go on my walks very early in the morning and by getting my head right, I mean its a chance for me to go through all the points I have to cover in the day,  I go on these walks without music or any distractions so I get a good chance to think through my daily checklist. I feel a sense of accomplishment when I complete my daily checklists and I can go to bed without any worries or mental workload. My morning walks are really important to me, essentially they help me plan my day and think about how I’m going to get them realised.

TB: Yes, I understand, I also set up daily goals as well and I do get a great sense of satisfaction when I get them all done.

LO: Yes it's great, I really like it, because I can go to bed with a sense of satisfaction, sleep well and wake up with the rising sun the next day, ready to set new goals!

TB: And in terms of Black History Month, what does it mean to you, why might you think it's important? 

LO: I think it's very important, of course people have different views and opinions but I think it's about a celebration of how far we have come as a society. It celebrates the acceptance of everyone in our society no matter the colour of their skin particularly if you are black and despite the terrible legacy of slavery. I mean I can’t imagine the mental scars and what it means to be a descendant of a slave, knowing that once upon a time your ancestors may have been treated in such an appalling manner. It is so sad and I think every time we celebrate black history month it's a reminder that we are all just humans and we should all be treated equally. 

TB: And do you have a personal or social cause that you have close to your heart that you would like to share with us?

LO: Yes, I really believe in children's rights and equality for girls and that's why I am a trustee and director for Plan International, a charity that advocates for that. The reason why I believe in this so much is because who you are can be determined from an early age as a child.  As a woman with four daughters, I think it's very important that both sexes are treated equally, and Plan really advocates for that and focuses very much on equality for girls, educate a girl and you educate a whole community. I think it's important to remember that.

I focus quite a lot of my time outside of work on mentoring young professional women and men. And one of the things I try to get across to my female mentees is that they have to make sure they understand that they have a voice and it's important to use it. Now I don't mean just speak, anyone can talk and say what they want but to use their voice the right way, on an informed basis, you need to get an education, know what you are saying, to stand up for yourself and your beliefs. That’s very important to me and I’ll continue to make sure I give my full support regarding this. 

TB: Lara, thanks for speaking to us, I really believe your mindset and your perceptions frame how you perceive and interact with the wider world and how you feel about yourself determines the quality of relationships you have in the world and I am a big advocate for young people finding that voice especially if they havent had the structures and support to have that self value in themselves, your views really resonates with me  and I really appreciate that you don't just sit at home and enjoy your success but still find a way to give something back via your mentoring. Now lastly what was your first ever job and what did you get out of it?

LO: Ha! Well my first job was the one I almost got fired from as discussed earlier. I was too busy chatting with the senior lawyer and not paying attention!  But I think for me just to wrap up one of the big lessons I have learned is to remember you are what you think so think big and make it happen.

TB: If you perceive yourself to be greater, you will be greater, you may have to take steps to actualize and realize it. Thank you so much.

JM: Thanks for meeting with us again Segun, really appreciate it. Talmud and I are looking forward to this chat. Right, question 1, who is Segun?

SO: You’re welcome Joe, Well, I am Segun Osuntokun, a Nigerian born British citizen, father of 3, married happily for, coming up to 25 years now. My day job is a commercial solicitor, practising in the City for coming up to 30 years now. I’m very strong in both my heritages, very Nigerian, very British. I manage to straddle both cultures, I think relatively comfortably. My upbringing was in Nigeria, schooled there till I was 15, though I did have a year here (UK) for prep school. I did my O levels in Nigeria and then I came to England for my A-levels, which was quite common for Nigerian kids back then and I think still now. After the A-levels in a boarding school in Suffolk I then went to Queen Mary University to read Economics. Graduated at age 20 and I then went back to Nigeria for my national service for a year, Because I graduated a little bit early I could afford to spend some time ‘thinking what next’ but  after the year of national service… you might know national service?

JM: Yes, I wasn’t brave enough to do that! What was the experience like?

SO: It was fine, I think when people talk about national service in certain countries, say in Israel, everybody assumes it's very paramilitary whereas in Nigeria it's more like community service.

JM: Ok, and where did they station you?

SO: Well I was stationed rather advantageously in Ibadan, which is where I lived and grew up, I’m sure it was fortuitous! So I lived at home and worked in a local bank for that year and every Friday we would be expected to go into the community, help out teaching in schools or building  walls.

 After that it was a question of ‘what next?’ I had the option to stay on in banking but to be honest I really wasn’t that keen. This was in the late 80’s and I had the option of doing law. A result of my uninterest in banking and my parents, also asking ‘what next’ questions. Questions like ‘what are you going to do with your economics degree?’ You know I had typical Nigerian parents.

JM: Yes, I know that well, usually they  want you to be a lawyer, doctor or engineer, the holy trinity of top careers, apparently.

SO: Exactly, actually both my parents were medical doctors, but medicine was out for me, there was just no way! Besides my eldest sister is a lawyer as well so I wanted to do that, and I got a place at Balliol College, Oxford university so I did that. 

I then came out and headed straight to the City (of London) where I trained at a firm called Wilde Sapte which is now part of Dentons. I qualified in 1993 as a litigator and have essentially stayed in the City since then, I have moved firm 3 times since then; Eversheds and then I spent a very long time at DLA Piper where I became a partner in 2003 and I joined BLP in 2008. BLP  then merged 3 years ago with a US firm and became BCLP .

JM: Understood, can I quickly follow up on the national service, what would you say you took away from your year back then any big lessons you remember from that time?

SO: At that age you don't really go into an experience, wondering what you can get from it, but I know I certainly made some great friendships, I had a bit of money, I was a graduate, I had a car, it was great! And in fact some of those friends I made then are still my great friends now.

JM: I know that's one of my biggest regrets not taking a year off studying, I know a lot of my friends from Nigeria also say positive things about their experience doing national service. 

SO: Yes, for me it was friendships and to be honest a little bit of toughing up, the experience of the orientation camp, I suppose it's the most paramilitary part of the year. You are all bundled together, woken up early morning by soldiers, asked to do various marching drills under the hot sun! The conditions to be honest were not great...bit of character building! 

JM: Ok, a fun question before we get into your previous roles and career history. Hypothetically, It's all gone wrong, you've made some terrible investments, your assets are gone and only have £500  to your name, how do you build yourself back up?

SO: Gost, how do I build back up, where do I start?

JM: Can you build back up? 

SO: Exactly! Ok, Gosh, I think at that point… I'll be very worried about my children first of all, the chances are if things have gone that badly wrong it means I have tried everything else and it's still gone to pot! I think I’ll probably just split it between my 3 children and say ‘here you are’, you have a go.

JM: Haha, fair enough!

SO: You know, ‘oh sorry, but this is what's left, good luck!’

JM: Dad’s blown your inheritance, to be fair, it's a bit of an unrealistic question but I do enjoy the answers we hear. Right, let's talk about your career, can you tell us of a particular highlight or marquee case you were involved in that you care to share with us today?

SO: Yes, I suppose in a career this long (30 years+) you see so many things and have done so many things that for me now, it's typically the successes of my early years that I am most proud of and they are the most meaningful for me. So I guess for me it's got to be the case I was instructed on when I was a young associate. I was instructed by the Federal Government of Nigeria on a massive asset tracing fraud litigation against the estate of the late General Sani Abacha.

JM: Oh right, you were involved in that? Talmud, Abacha was a military president of Nigeria in the 90s, my grandfather was his minister for foreign affairs at the time. Abacha was quite a character and I’ll leave it at that, I mean he was a military leader which should give you an idea how things ended.

SO: Yes, he was a military leader who basically, personally enriched himself and his family to the tune of dollar Billions at the country's expense. So when he met his unfortunate end, the Nigerian government tried to reclaim the stolen money.

JM: What an exciting case...did you find all of it (the missing billions)?

SO: Well we found quite a lot of it, we were instructed by the civilian government that came in after his military government, to try and recover some of the money he had made off with. It came about when I was at Evershed, when a childhood friend of mine who was a partner at a law firm in Nigeria gave me a call. He advised that he had this mandate from the new government and would I like to do it? I said ‘hell yeah’ and that was it. It was a lot of fun, we worked on this for about 2-3 years.

JM: Yes, you must have been running around all over Continental Europe because I understand he hid there the money all over the place?

SO: Yes, you are right, so we started proceedings here (the UK), with freezing orders,  freezing assets in Switzerland,  Jersey, Liechtenstein…

JM: All the usual places…

SO: Yes! And while the claim was about a specific transaction which we said was corrupt, in essence the president had enriched himself and his children by inserting himself as a middleman involving a deal with the Nigerian government. But in the course of that we got disclosure orders that revealed where their assets were so other claims  could be brought .

JM: Fantastic, so other claims could be brought on behalf of the government.

SO: Yes exactly, and we got a good deal for the government, the claim settled eventually.

JM... with the family?

SO: Well that's another story entirely!

JM: Say no more, but it's very interesting that you worked on that. So on the flip side to the initial question, can you tell us about a career disappointment and what positive lessons you took away from that experience?

SO: There are two episodes I want to narrate in regards to your question. One was very early on in my life and it was a crisis, an adverse event which motivated me in a way I hadn’t thought possible and the second one is one within my professional career. 

So the adverse event, when I was in my first year at Queen Mary University, I was relatively young for my year (having finished my A levels a year young at 17) and to be honest I wasn’t very serious about studying. I’m just being honest and perhaps that immaturity was due to my youth, I think if I was doing that again I would have held myself back a couple of years and gone to University at 19. Because I just wasn’t ready for the work needed.

Anyway, so I went to Nigeria after my first term and ended up catching typhoid and when I came back to England, I was so ill and the doctors hadn’t seen typhoid in years and it was just terrible. So long story cut short, I missed  my second and most of my third terms at university. I was given the option of repeating the year or ‘chancing it’ and sitting the exams for that year.

Something in me said  ‘look what have you got to lose? Why don't you take this time, stuck in bed and just study? And that was the first time I actually thought., ‘ok...Just apply yourself’, and you know, I did surprisingly well and was able to continue without having to resit my first year of university. From then on ‘I got it’ and dare I say it, if  I hadn’t had that crisis I may have just ‘played’ my way through university.

And in terms of your question, in a professional context, a great disappointment was when I presented for a partnership at DLA back in 2002. I had taken the Abacha case with me from Eversheds to DLA in 1999 while still an associate.

JM: That's not bad going as an associate bringing that sort of business with you, I’m not surprised there was talk of a partnership so early in your career, some  good relationships you could beat your chest about?

SO: Yes, at the time there was big billing potential, the client (Nigerian Government) wanted to follow me. So I said I wanted a partnership, afterall none of my peers brought in that kind of business. So my application was put forward and ultimately it didn't go ahead. I was told, at that time, the firm was ‘not in the right place’, ‘it's not your time’ and that sort of thing. But they were reasonable excuses, and it was a question of whether to accept this feedback or not. Do I trust it? The partners I worked with at the time gave me huge support and they were just as disappointed. They gave me some assurances that they were not stringing me along (which some firms do) and a partnership would happen for me and that a year (till the next partnership application) would go by in no time. So that's what I did. I stuck it out for another year even though I was hugely disappointed not to get that partnership. But I trusted them, I knew my own worth and ultimately it paid off, I became a partner the next year.  A year is nothing in the end, especially in this game, you've just got to be patient.

JM: 100% agree with you Segun, there is a great learning outcome there, certainly I know from my own professional career, that I’ve been guilty personally of not being patient and without trying to generalise too much, I think some of our young men and women have also been guilty in the sense that in that scenario which you just mentioned that perhaps we throw our toys out the pram and throw a tantrum, we think we have brought in business, we have options, headhunters constantly reaching out to us and perhaps there is a tendency to feel we haven’t got what we wanted so we ‘up and leave’ and I think sometimes that transition to a leadership position is tough to get.Your performance, skill alone can get you up to middle management but for the directorships or leadership roles, it becomes a bit more nuanced and extra skills are needed and I think one of it is a willingness to be patience and trust that management will look after you if you continue to excel. It's a great piece of learning, thanks for sharing that with us. OK, shall we talk about BCLP, tell us about your current firm?

SO: So BCLP is an international law firm, a creation of a merger between two UK and US based firms. We are now a law firm with 1400 lawyers in 30 offices, US, UK, Continental Europe, the Middle East, Russia and Asia. We are 3 years into the merger, still going strong.

JM: Still a happy marriage? 

SO: Yes, still a happy marriage! Still a work in progress as many early marriages are, but it's going well. We've done a  heck of a lot in two and a half years and quite frankly we've done it the hard way because we have not chosen the route of many international professional services firms, which tend to be a collection of stand alone independent profit and loss centres joined by a central function and sharing a brand.

JM: Yes, same as accounting partnerships, each office or country unit has its own cost and profit center with some expenses set aside for central functions like marketing, back office admin, HR etc. essentially each office or country is independent and runs their own team as their own business. 

SO: Yes exactly, so we decided in order to get the full benefit of a merger at this size we were going to go full financial integration, so we are truly one firm with one profit pool for partners in New York, Moscow, London or wherever. We all share in one profit pool, which is not the case traditionally.

JM: Ok, can I just ask then, cause that is an unusual set up for a law firm. How is there full equity then? If you are working really hard here in London, perhaps you’ve brought in some great clients significantly contributing to billing numbers for the firm, and perhaps the partners in say, Russia, haven't quite pulled their socks up …

SO: Sure, so you build the compensation structure to be able to measure value and  value is not just Pounds and Roubles in this case, but it also contribution to the firm both in tangible and intangible forms, e.g building cultures, diversity, cross selling to other partners.

JM: That is really progressive for a law firm , I think usually you guys look after your own profit and costs centres…

SO: Yes, look, obviously we have to turn a profit, but just as important is the way you make that profit and we pay a lot of attention to that, so we are one of the few law firms who are set up as one firm, In the truest sense of that word.

JM: Can I ask what are your expectations for your role, what are your year on year  targets and your objectives?

SO: Well I had some pretty well worked out  goals at the start of the year… and it's all just gone  poof!

JM: Yes, didn’t we all! I started a new business this year! So trust me I understand what you are saying.

SO: Well look, I've been in the role of managing partner now for 2 years and it was always going to be an interesting role in the sense that there wasn't a managing partner in our london office in the past. So post merger, a need arose in London, with our office becoming the largest chunk of the new BCLP family, we are the biggest office by revenue and staff.

 So when I was asked to take on the role, I had to figure out what the role was and how I could shape it to meet the expectations of the new partnership. I knew there would be challenges, for example one of my responsibilities was moving and organising our new offices, and so we ended up moving the whole london office during this pandemic. So we had planned to move on Easter weekend …

JM : Gosh, what stress.

SO: So it really was, I had overseen the project, the architect, fit out and all the logistical issues that go with moving so many people. But this project was useful because it has given me the opportunity to ask the question on whether we still need big offices. What is our new business model in a post COVID world? What is the office going to be for? The role of the office is going to have to change, though I don't think that everyone will work from home forever and a day. However we are not insisting anyone comes in right now, we have kept the offices open as we know there will be employees or clients who want to come in for various reasons.

JM: So it seems your role as a managing partner is exactly that and less the hustle and bustle of  business development, going out and winning new clients. I know I am a hunter and enjoying going out and meeting potential new clients and trying to win their business, so how has the transition been for you, for someone who is clearly a hunter himself?

SO: So It's not all management, I’m still practising.

JM: Ok, can you split it for us in terms of percentages of management to active cases you work on?

SO: It really depends, I mean at times it will be all management, and then it's all work. You know I was in the middle of an injunction a couple of weeks ago and I just put my head down and got on with that. But I would say maybe 70 percent of my time is spent on  management issues. It's spiked now because of the pandemic but normally it wouldn’t be that  much.

JM: And just forgive my ignorance but would that be the case with most law firms of your size (1400 plus staff)?

SO: Well some firms have a completely different model and will make the managing partners role a full time management role. But we've taken the view that we want all our partners to be working partners. 

JM: And the last question from me anyway, is how has BCLP encouraged and embolden you over the years to continue to fulfill both your professional and personal needs, how do they promote work/life balance?

SO: I think BCLP has always been really supportive, professionally I take the example of the Africa practice that I am head of, when I came over from DLA I was keen to continue my Africa focus and the firm has been really supportive of that. We made some additional hires, our Dubai office acts as a hub for our Africa practise, so I’ve always been supported in that endeavour. 

And in terms of other aspirations, I wouldn’t say I aspired to be a managing partner.  I was asked and I thought about it, and I guess I saw that a degree of confidence and trust was reposed in me and my ability to  relate to my partners. Management is a partnership and can be a challenge but I appreciate it. Ultimately this is a firm that takes its culture seriously. I know everyone says that but I really believe that and it's more of a habit here rather than a series of initiatives. This firm has a very strong, very inclusive culture. 

TB: So how has Covid  affected you personally along with professionally, I can imagine from a work perspective the firm may not have had as much access to revenue opportunities as before?

SO: Professionally, obviously it's affected the business, deal flow is down, I mean certain parts of the business are doing well, but M&A, transactions are down. However Litigation is holding up. It's really a question of managing your cost base in the face of reducing revenues, cash flow issues, so we have put in some checks, like deferring payments, however there is also a natural stabilisation in that business development costs are way down, things like travel is way, way down, so the cost of doing business has reduced though obviously there are fixed costs we can't do anything about in the short term.

JM: So with that being said, how do you go about winning business in the current climate, not new business per se as I imagine that will be very, very difficult right now but in maintaining some revenue streams, if you can share that with us of course?

SO: Our business is very simple. You need to find clients, you need to do work for them, you need to bill them and they need to pay you, It's not complicated!

Now look, it still has some complexity in each of those individual sections but ultimately, you need to stay close to your clients, remind them that you are there so that when something comes up you are the first person they think of. So it's not just about keeping in touch, but you want to make sure you are keeping deep and meaningful relationships with them, you can share with them, be empathic, you know good business development goes deeper than ‘just business’ and it's hard to do that over a zoom call, but you have to right now.

And to be fair they get it (the clients) they know it's tough and that you are doing your best to stay in touch, it's the fact that you can't travel, but you have to find a way to stay in touch.

TB: So I guess what you are saying in this COVID time, what you have to do is both be reassuring (to the clients) and build upon that pre-existing relationship so it's sustained and maintained.

SO: You are absolutely right Talmud, the difficult bit is finding new clients in this environment, that is just tough right now.

TB: So tell us, what does Black History Month mean to you and why do you think it's important?

SO: Why is it important, well let me start by confronting the negative aspect, people might say ‘oh why should we have black history month, why celebrate only black history and not during the rest of the year?’ And my answer to that is well of course you celebrate it every month of the year. But you have a month that we mark out because it's important to do this in a dominant culture which has underrated and under celebrated black history, to make a statement that it is important and our history matters too. Look, it's similar to the Black Lives Matter movement in America where detractors might challenge it by saying ‘well doesn't every life matter?’ And yes, of course every life matters, everybody should know that, but ‘black lives matters’ is important because context is all, context is important. For example if you say we should have a white history month, well think about it, all your history is white, its celebrated, you don't have a history where there is a failure to celebrate it or it is under celebrated it, you don't have a history of failure of not acknowledging the contributions you have made to culture, science, medicine, technology or the Arts. That is why we need a black history month, so it's meaningful and powerful and we can bring attention to the Black people who have also advanced our world. So that's the way I see it. 

TB: Great Answer, can you tell us about  a cause, social or health issue that you are passionate about? 

SO: Mental health and well-being, is something I am really passionate about. I mean I come at it from different angles. I think I've always been interested in the concept of human consciousness. The notion that we are here and talking, connecting in so many different ways, which no one has actually been able to explain fully. If you speak to psychologists, you realise that they don't know what consciousness is – it's one of the hardest questions you can ask and it's always fascinated me. When I was a young lawyer, I put a lot of pressure on myself and I probably still do. I was really anxious and stressed out. I started having panic attacks, you know that desire to do well was becoming seriously overwhelming. So I had CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) to understand more about how human emotion and behaviours work and how to manage them. 

One of my children, unfortunately, had a mental health diagnosis when she was a teenager. She has an emotionally unstable personality, which in old money is called borderline personality disorder, which is one of the most challenging mental illnesses you can have. You know she is 20 now and has been a huge influence on me. Seeing how she copes with her challenges, the way she copes with herself and wears her physical and metaphorical scars without shame, has always been an inspiration to me and has got me thinking about what really makes people tick. And weaving it all together, working in this environment, I think about  the pressures I was under as a young lawyer, you know at a time when it wasn't much of a thing to talk about mental stress. And now seeing the state of our profession and the mental stress we still put ourselves under. The preciousness of consciousness and the fact that you have to look after it.  People assume that it will look after itself (your mental health) and it really doesn't, so for me it's been a journey of personal curiosity ensuring that the people I know and work with understand that their mental health is precious and that you can't just  leave it to chance, you have to look after it and take an active interest in your wellbeing. 

TB: Thank you so much for that, I feel like there's more to be said on mental health but we are running out of time! Part of what we do is look at emotional wellbeing and I've had a long journey through emotional wellbeing and building up resilience. We worked with KPMG looking at stress in the work environment and how to answer that issue of managing the staff with their mental health in mind. For example an employee might need professional support from their boss, but that individual is usually also the person you have to report to, who tells you whether or not you are doing a good job. I could talk all day about that! But let's look at our final question. What was your first ever paid job and what lessons did you learn from the experience?

JM: And what did you do with all the money!?

SO: Ha! My first job was during my year out, I never worked before that, which when I tell my children they always say I was so spoiled! And here you are telling us to go and get a holiday job and work at our local supermarket. But yes, I got my first job at the bank after graduation I suppose. 

JM: Good, well look, thanks for speaking with us today, it's been great.